we always use day five so if the initiation of Menses even if it's spotting is day one but we always just pick day five and that way we have a really consistent view specifically of FSH and estradiol progesterone is zero at that time but the FSH and the estradiol really give us a sense of how close she's probably getting to menopause and then we correlate that with symptoms to sort of start to think about initiating HRT